Inverted Dries

[Dejon Hamann]

I touched on this subject in another thread, but I was wondering if anyone has had success inverting their dries so they float corrently when being called upon to float weighted nymphs?

Notice how a regular klink has to fight the force of weighted nymphs to float true:


Whereas the inverted Klink is lined up perfectly:


I've only fiddled around with this design a few times, but will be looking to field test a few now that our season is changing. Obviously, hook setting direction is a great concern in the inverted klink. Hook gap doesn't seem that bad though.

[Jeremiah Hamilton]

only concern I have is that the heckle acts as a weed guard and the odd angle for hook set.

[Adam Wellington]

If you kept the post the same direction, and wrapped the hackle just around the post and not the hook shank the hackle would clear the hook point better, and hook set angle should improve, this is just in theory, as I am not at my vise to experiment. It should cock the abdomen a few degrees out of plumb but not as much as a standard klink.

[Chris Galvin]

I touched on this subject in another thread, but I was wondering if anyone has had success inverting their dries so they float corrently when being called upon to float weighted nymphs?

I've only fiddled around with this design a few times, but will be looking to field test a few now that our season is changing. Obviously, hook setting direction is a great concern in the inverted klink. Hook gap doesn't seem that bad though.

It looks to me as if it should work.  The trout should have the whole fly in its mouth before you set the hook.  I have a feeling nymphs aren't always lined up for the best set.  I've thought about tying standard dry flies backwards on the shank (with tails protruding over hook eye) to hang droppers off the bend.  <---not for me, gasp!  Guide clients!

Let me know how it works, and send along a dozen sample flies for testing...   

[Todd Oishi]

Dejon, that's what I like about you, you're always "thinking outside of the box"...

I would suggest that you use sinkant on the fly's body material and mud (degrease) your leader or it will have a tough time "righting" itself upon the water's surface. I would curious how well it would work if you experimented with a CDC post for extra buoyancy (not the same, but somewhat similar to the Shaving Brush pattern).

[Dejon Hamann]

So, I fished a couple variations of the "Inverted Klink" today. It seems to ride higher and much truer then the original. Unfortunately, no rising fish to test it's hook setting and keeping prowess.

Todd, I'm only using this fly in a dry/dropper configuration, so the nymphs always immediately "right" the fly once they find depth.  I'd much rather use the original design if it were being fished alone.

[Mark Hanes]

I think i will have to tie some of these up to test.  I wonder how a Pheasant Tail Body would work on this fly. 

[Adam Wellington]

I messed around on the vise tonight, and tried a version on an emerger hook, here are some pics:

In vise



in water (from below)



It floats very well without any type of treatment, with a gink'd post and hackle it should ride a bit higher, and be able to support a dropper.

Now its a waiting game till spring for the hatches...

[Todd Oishi]

Very nice pattern Adam! What sort of materila did you use for the body?

[Loren Williams]

Adam,

What would happen to the fly's attitude in the water if you tied some tippet to it?

[Kevin Compton]

Chris G: "I've thought about tying standard dry flies backwards on the shank (with tails protruding over hook eye) to hang droppers off the bend."

Here are some patterns by Roy Christie from the UK; he's played around with the idea & various inversions:

http://www.danica.com/flytier/rchristie/rchristie.htm

Whatever happened to the Waterwisp folks? Anyone know why they left the commercial scene? If I remember right, they sold inverted patterns.

[Adam Wellington]

Todd,

the pattern is as follows:

Hook: sz 12 emerger
wing post: Fly Tyer's Dungeon Parachute Indicator Post
Hackle: Collins Barred Ginger Saddle Hackle
Rib: copper wire
Body: Fly Tyers Dungeon Hare's Web Dubbing, Hare's ear color


Loren,

I tied a sz 14 Bead Head PT dropper and a tippet on the dry, and the exact opposite of what I thought would happen happened. The tippet pulled the eye of the hook up even though the dropper was pulling down. The fly rode almost sideways when it was rigged, but perfectly vertical when it was just dropped in the water alone (no dropper or tippet). Back to the drawing board   

[Loren Williams]

That stinks Adam, but I sort of figured something like that would happen.  Surface tension is a powerful beast.

[Dejon Hamann]

I think they floated pretty true to expectations:



However, both of these size 10 Klinks with ample macrame' yarn had big time problems holding up a single size 12 Frenchie (tung/lead).  Even doped.

[Loren Williams]

Dejon,

I can't really tell, do those have tippet from the eye to the surface of the water or is there just a dropper tied to the eye?

[Dejon Hamann]

Just on droppers in keeping with fips-mouche rules.

[John Killinger]

We'll while your on the subject of Inverted dries, I'll tell you a bit about the last TU meeting I was at.

We had a speaker by the name of Mike Snody, and he gave a presentation on his slant tank which accurately represents the trout's vision. He put water in in and let us look up in it. Wow, it was cool and he went into great detail about refraction which most of it was over my head. It was neet to see how everything that comes in front of the fish from top to bottom is seen by the trout. The images of nymphs on the bottom were seen by the refraction on the surface. Most important and reason why I wrote this was he tied a fly upside down called a USD pale morning dun. The hackle was tied on the bottom and the hook was up with wings on top also. They passed it around to see before the tank demo, I thought why is this fly tied like this. Well now I know. When he put that in the tank it lit up like a christmas tree. Every little barb was sparkling. I would have never thought that. I need to make a trip to his shop and buy a few of them. That's one dude who was really into trout!

[Loren Williams]

Just on droppers in keeping with fips-mouche rules.

It's just been my experience that having a tippet and leader ahead of a dry fly can really change how it sits in the water.

I do appreciate what you are working toward..padding the eye end of the hook since that is where the weight is added.

[Mark Hanes]

Look like you got a great idea now it just need perfected.  What about adding CDC as the body material?  That might add a little more floatation.  I am thinking adding a second hackle would also help.  Even adding foam for the post might help flotation. 

[Adam Wellington]

I think the key is to maximize the flotation of the post/hackle and make the body slender and non-buoyant as possible. The foam post would definitely help, and a second hackle, possibly even adding some CDC "hackle" on the post.  Then maybe if the tippet was degreased it would help the body of the dry drop to a more vertical orientation. The tippet really pulled on the dry when I tried it yesterday, that is the biggest problem to solve.

What if the dry was tied on a dropper tag, and the dropper nymph was on point, if the dry could stay afloat, the tippet would be below the surface of the water and the point nymph would be pulling vertically on the dry and tippet would be in between.

[Dejon Hamann]

What if the dry was tied on a dropper tag, and the dropper nymph was on point, if the dry could stay afloat, the tippet would be below the surface of the water and the point nymph would be pulling vertically on the dry and tippet would be in between.

That's how the two are rigged above. In fips mouche you can't "Break" your leader, so you can't tie eye to eye, or eye to shank, etc when tying on droppers. Really a dropper tag is the only legal way to tie on a dry dropper rig.

[Adam Wellington]

D, I couldn't see the tippet in the pictures you posted, I didn't realize. So the orientation of the fly is right, it just seems like the nymph is really tugging on the dry, and submerging it. Did you try any Frog's Fanny on the post and hackles? That might get the post to ride higher. Next chance I get, I'll try to come up with a hackle/CDC combo that might float better. Of course, over-doing the top might screw up the look of the dry in the water. Are Unibobbers legal in F-M comps?

[Dejon Hamann]

I probably should have used a higher viz tippet for the shots, but i wanted it to be the same material.

The nymph may just be too heavy for any configuration of those materials on that size fly.  I do think using a bit more hackle, a little foam, more slender body, more macrame would help. I  put some silicon on it, but it didn't help too much.  I think they would both easily float 16/18s though.

The Unibobber seems to be currently legal F-M comps and it's definitely something I should try out soon. I just feel it might "sacrifice" the flies ability to catch fish.I guess if you spun enouch hackle around it's post it would be pretty hard to tell the difference between a white unibobber and a pack of white marcrame yarn from below though.

[Adam Wellington]

I doubt the visual aspect of the uni-bobber would effect the fish catching ability (attractiveness to fish) of the fly, but it may effect the hooking ability in the inverted style having the big ball near the bend of the hook (theoretical observation, I have yet to strap a bobber on a hook, but they callin' me ).

This is the type of stuff that I love about fly fishing and tying; there are so many ways to go about solving a problem, you end up learning so much more along the way than what you initially set out for. Also, having a bunch of other brains to bounce theories and ideas off of, makes the process that much more fun.

[Arron Varga]

I would take a look at Roy Christie's flies.  He has a fly with a similar design called the Avon Special http://www.danica.com/flytier/rchristie/avon_special.htm.

Along with this and his Reverse Para Emerger patterns http://www.danica.com/flytier/rchristie/olive_emerger_1.htm, Roy patterns are designed to help sink the tippet/leader below the water for tippet weary fish.