Flouro Alternatives

[Dejon Hamann]

That's the good olde Torrey I remember!!

Very nice analysis.  So, do you think the abrazx/invisx line is "100%" Flouro?

[Rich Strolis]

I 100% agree with  Torrey  on this one as we've discussed this exact topic at length numerous times.    He is spot on with the tippet rundown, and uses.  I will say this on another note, the rio suppleflex tippet for dries is not worth the purchase in my opinion.  It is way to limp and turns over poorly.  The idea is great but the material collapses on the cast, add wind and you've got one agitated angler at days end.   I can understand why one would want to find more economical alternatives, but in my opinion you get what you pay for and in this case, I would spend the few extra bucks on the Rio or Frog Hair.  I haven't stopped using those two products in the last 6-7 years.  It's one of those purchases that hurts when you make it but is well worth it in the long run...

[Mark Hanes]

I will admit when i really need to know the diameters I think I will be switching back to the RIO.  But for my casual fishing and stockie bashing I will stick to the Abrzax for now.  I just have not had any problem with it. 

Dejon you making the move back to the regular tippet?

[Dejon Hamann]

I am not completely immune to a little good science mixed with a bunch of here say... so most likely yes    Frog Hair is just too damned expensive though.  Probably Rio Plus for me.  I'm a penny pincher when it comes to certain things.  Oddly enough I never worry about a few extra bucks when it comes to fine liquor.

[Domenick Swentosky]

Not a word about P-Line HALO, huh?  I just got a couple spools of it in the mail today on the word of some of the guys on TPO.  Nobody say anything bad about it or you'll screw up my concentration for this weekend's fishing.   

Awesome post, Torrey.  Thanks for the insights.  Funny to hear that if it pigtails ... it's you!  I only ever had one brand of line that I had a problem with.  The Dai Riki on the brown spool ruined a day of fishing for me (or, I ruined for myself?)  I love the Dai Riki on the green spools for dries, but I was trying out the other stuff one day, and I simply could not tie a knot with it that would hold.  Knots wouldn't seat, they would slip, the line would pigtail.  I remember sitting on the banks of Penns Creek for long stretches while my Dad fished just wondering WHAT was going on.  I haven't used it since.  Maybe that was actually a bad spool.

It looks like some of you are saying Orvis Mirage = Rio Flouroflex Plus.  Good, because that's the only fluoro I've used until know because it's a good bit cheaper.

Enjoy the day.
Domenick

[Jackson Hoose]

thanks for the info Torrey.. thats helpful.  This whole thread is great actually.  Haven't tested a whole lot of different tippets but have had best luck with the Rio Flouroflex plus.  I got some of that Mou line from Wflies recently in 6x and it seems pretty nice.  I have some seagur from Reid as well that i use frequently. I think this is the 5x-ish stuff from a spool of "spinning rod" flouro.  Its worked great for my purposes and seems pretty strong. 

[Torrey Collins]

Dejon-
If they don't advertise it as being 100%, then I would guess it isn't.  100% fluoro is a strong selling point that they wouldn't likely pass up.  Do they claim it is pure 100% fluoro?

Remember too that there are different generations of fluoro, with the top FF ones (Seaguar Grand Max, Rio Fluroflex Plus, Frog Hair, etc.) all being what I would call 3rd Generation.  Remember how much lower the break strengths were when fluoro hit the market years ago?  3x was 5-6 pound, now it's 8-9# or more. 

[Dejon Hamann]

Yes. It's advertised as 100%:
http://www.seaguar.com/products/abrazx.htm

[Torrey Collins]

Then I'm sure it is 100%.  I'd be curious to know what "generation" of fluoro it is though.

[Aaron Laing]

I use Berkley Vanish of various sizes for non FF leaders (mostly ice fishing)...  I don't understand how they can bill it as 100% Fluoro, when it must be blended with mono at that price point.

I just had a discussion with an outfit out of Ontario that specializes in spinning fluorocarbon for steelhead and "drop shot" fishing on the "Pro bass" circuit (no accounting for taste ). He made mention that a lot of the early generation of spinner fluorocarbon (such as Vanish), and indeed some of the current crop of offerings, were/are made using a resin extrusion process and the result is a significantly weaker (and cloudier) product. It could be BS but it makes some sense.

He went on to say the current crop of spinner fluoro is much improved (as we know) and made mention of some of the alternatives above. His assessment of the Abrazx wasn't great (he considered the BStrain to be overstated). I suspect this may have to do with the use of it on spinning outfits and the different stresses put on it. Instead he steered me towards the Sunline Super FC Sniper Fluorocarbon and at his recommendation I decided to give it a try. It specs out at 5X for the 4lb and 3X for the 6lb and is apparently quite a bit stiffer than some of the other spinner fluoros on the market (it's also cheaper). I ordered 200yds of each and I'll report back after I receive it and have had a chance to try it out.

They are also going to include a small chunk 8-10' of the Seaguar Tatsu in the package so I can compare it to the sniper. The guy I was speaking to said it was very supple and being that it was recommended elsewhere I thought it would be good to have a look at it. Again, I'll report back after I see it.

Aaron

PS Up to this point I've always forked out for the better quality tippets (including Umpqua Super Fluoro and Rio Fluoro-flex plus), but the last $26!!! dollar 30yard spool I picked up made me realize that outside of competition I've got to come up with some cheaper alternatives.

[Dejon Hamann]

PS Up to this point I've always forked out for the better quality tippets (including Umpqua Super Fluoro and Rio Fluoro-flex plus), but the last $26!!! dollar 30yard spool I picked up made me realize that outside of competition I've got to come up with some cheaper alternatives.

I pulled out an old spool of "4.5x" Abrazx the other day.  I couldn't see any difference in the way it performed against my Rio+ 5x.  And I'd walk into worlds tomorrow with either feeling just as confidant.

I know it's not of popular opinion around here, but to a certain extent I think tippet doesn't matter just as we've discussed "flies don't matter."  Now before you start rocket launching micrometers and statistics at me remember the "flies don't matter" analogy.  The difference between some of these products is so minute that it renders those differences obsolete.  There are much larger issues that affect your catch rate and success in a competition like: presentation, approach, and strike detection.  Of course 20lb Seagur Flourocabon isn't going to perform as well as 5x Rio Plus.  Just as a 1/0 Clouser isn't going to outperform an 18 Frenchie.  I think comparing some of the better flourocarbon products we've listed here is like saying: "a light orange thread size 18 frenchie won me the competition! The dark orange one just didn't perform as well."

[Chris Topmiller]

Won't the larger diameter of the cheaper flouro affect the sink rate?   5 lb is 5 lb, but there's a world of difference between .008 and .010 (or whatever it is).  I've looked at tippet diameters at the cabelas store, and 4 lb flouro sold in the gear section has the same diameter as 8LB flouroflex plus. . all of which leaves me with the inescapable conclusion that I have to get a life.   

[Chris Topmiller]

But, a caveat:  I didn't see the Seagar abraz in the store.   I'm looking specifically for that the next time I go in. 

[Domenick Swentosky]

Dejon,
I agree with you.  I don't think it matters all that much, especially for guys that aren't competing like myself.  However, I've only fished with 3 different fluorocarbon materials.  Mirage, P-line Halo, and Abrazx.  I just can't bring myself to drop the bucks on the Rio.  Probably never will. 

Between the 3 I like the Halo the best, and after I go through my spools of Abrazx, I'm probably going back to Halo.  All I can say is that in both those brands, that's a really, really, really strong 4 pound test. 

Enjoy the day.
Domenick

[Aaron Laing]

I pulled out an old spool of "4.5x" Abrazx the other day.  I couldn't see any difference in the way it performed against my Rio+ 5x.  And I'd walk into worlds tomorrow with either feeling just as confidant.

I know it's not of popular opinion around here, but to a certain extent I think tippet doesn't matter just as we've discussed "flies don't matter."  Now before you start rocket launching micrometers and statistics at me remember the "flies don't matter" analogy.  The difference between some of these products is so minute that it renders those differences obsolete.  There are much larger issues that affect your catch rate and success in a competition like: presentation, approach, and strike detection.  Of course 20lb Seagur Flourocabon isn't going to perform as well as 5x Rio Plus.  Just as a 1/0 Clouser isn't going to outperform an 18 Frenchie.  I think comparing some of the better flourocarbon products we've listed here is like saying: "a light orange thread size 18 frenchie won me the competition! The dark orange one just didn't perform as well."

I got all that Dejon, and you're right of course.

Just call my purchase an attempt to broaden the available range of alternatives. I'm just looking for a product that is cheap, relatively stiff compared to mono, and has a good BS/diameter ratio primarily for presenting nymphs in a practice environment.

As I said it specs out at 5X (maybe 4.5x when all is said and done) and has the right breaking strength. I'm going to give it a whirl.

On a side note, I actually called them regarding the Abrazx, which apparently isn't available in Western Canada. I'll probably pick some up the next time I go Stateside.

Aaron

[Dejon Hamann]

Shucks. Correct my last post.  I've never tried Abrazx before. It's a spool of Invisx that I have. 

Confidence is key though. If spending a few more bucks on "real tippet" increases your confidence then go for it!

I've been flipping back and forth for years on this one

[Mark Hanes]

i use abrzax and really like it.

[Torrey Collins]

Anybody have the diameters for the Seaguar Invisx in 4# & 6#?  Is it the same as the Abrazx?  If I remember correctly the Seaguar Abrazx is .065" (4.5x equivalent) in 4#  and .075" (3.5x equivalent) in 6#.  In reality, because most tippet (even the super expensive premium stuff like Rio Fluoro+ and Frog Hair Fluoro) is usually about a half size over if you actually measure it and don't take the manufacturers stated size as gospel, so the 4# spinning line typically ends up being about 5x, and the 6# about 4x, for all intensive purposes.  I'm still a big fan of the Frog Hair fluoro, I seem to get less break-offs on that than anything else.  The 4# Abrazx did work well though when I've used it Euro Nymphing for trout. 

Managing a fly shop, I'm fortunate to be able to get a very good price on 100 yard/meter spools of premium fly fishing fluoro tippet.  For those of you who don't, I can totally understand getting the spinning line.  Seems to be that currently the top 3 spinning fluoros are (according to my little group of fishing fanatics): Seaguar Abrazx (very tough) & Invizx (very supple), and the P-Line Halo (one of Davy Wotton's favorites).  Curious if anyone knows the diameters for the P-Line Halo in the 4 & 6#. 

[Domenick Swentosky]

Torrey, Bass Pro Shop has the diameters of most lines listed, including the two to which you are referring.

http://www.basspro.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10151_-1_10001_89313____SearchResults
http://www.basspro.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10151_-1_10001_104165____SearchResults

I know that diameters are often incorrectly marked (hello Maxima) but I've used my micrometer on these and they seem very close to where they are listed, so i really don't know how we can consider the P-line 4 pound as 5X.  I wish that it was, but comes out pretty much right at .007.  Maybe a touch under.  The 6 pound is almost dead on .008.  The Seaguar is just a touch smaller in both 4 and 6 pound. 

I'm looking into the Sunline that Kierran just mentioned.  I like that it's offered in 3 and 5 pound as well, and those diameters look more along the lines of what I'm looking for.

http://www.basspro.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10151_-1_10001_10214898____SearchResults

Enjoy the day.
Domenick

[Aaron Laing]

Just received two spools of the Sunline FC Sniper Fluoro today. My micrometre is a cheapo plastic model, but it looks like the 4 and 6# test out very near the advertised diameters which puts the 4# in the 5X range and the 6# at 3X. It seems fairly stiff out of the package and strong as stink (although I haven't had a chance to test it knotted).

I'll give it a go over the next little while and put together a few strength "tests".

I'll report in later.

Aaron

[Dejon Hamann]

What are your thoughts on the sniper now Aaron?

[Aaron Laing]

What are your thoughts on the sniper now Aaron?

I was going to give it the full season before reporting back, but we're getting pretty close so what the hey...

Generally speaking it's good stuff. It is fairly "hard" and stiff, more so than than the Fluroflex, but less so than some specialty monos. It is damn strong for its diameter, and probably over-test in practical terms. Its stiffness makes it perfect for droppers. On the down side, it does not handle wind knots well--in fact a simple overhand knot significantly weakens the test strength. That said, the standard ligature knot for leader to leader connections and the clinch and improved clinch hold as well as the do on mono tippet.

Summary: It's clearly not high end fluroflex tippet--ie Fluroflex, Frog Hair, et al. However, it has proved surprisingly strong and durable, and the price per metre is hard to beat. With a little attention to knots and abrasion it performs like the higher send stuff and certainly fills the non-competition gap for fluoro. I give it a buy rating.

Aaron

[Tod Mervis]

May be I am mistaken but a St Croix sales rep once told me that the differences between tippet and line where consistency of product meaning for example 4lbs maxima tippet and 4lbs maxima mono line were the same chemical composition but the tippet had a consistent diameter through out the entire length of line and regular line had an average diameter meaning it might be thicker and thinner through out the line. I was told it was this quality control in manufacturing that warranted the extra cost in tippet material.
With that said I have been using the P Line  Halo flouro spinning line and i am very happy with it as my tippet. I have noticed an extra benefit of Halo and that is that it sinks better than any flouro I have used before which translates into less weight needed in my flies to get in the zone.
Of course this is just my experiences

[Dejon Hamann]

Welcome to the forum Tod.

Yeah, I've heard that theory too.  Part of me thinks it's just a sales pitch mantra type of thing.  If it is true I'll bet the variance is so low with some of the better mainlines on the market today that it's of little concern.

Still interested in giving the Sniper a go as it has lots of sizes down to 2lb.

[Aaron Laing]

Still interested in giving the Sniper a go as it has lots of sizes down to 2lb.

I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. I'm almost through my spool of the 4lb and my "buy" rating still holds. You still have to watch for wind knots and go heavy on the lip lube when snugging down your regular knots, but damn it works well.

Aaron