Does size matter?

[Dejon Hamann]

The more I work on refining my techniques the more I trust that Presentation and Strike Detection trump fly selection.  So much so that I've been considering of late axing every other hook size from my tying desk.  Often I find fish can be induced to strike by changing presentation rather than fly.  And the same fish will take numerous widely varying fly designs if presented in that specific manner.

So, when does size really matter?  Will a size 16 vs a size 18 frenchie really win the day everything else being equal?  

KISS : too many patterns/sizes leaves room for that little devil of blame to pop up.  No, it wasn't the fly. It was you



Since I really like a size 18 hook as my smallest fish holding size I'm considering axing 16/12/8 going down.  

Thoughts? Reactions? Experiences? Theories?

[Chris Topmiller]

Hmmm.  . . jury is still out on this one.  I think size might matter, though I usually end up throwing the same thing weekend after weekend and hooking up, so who knows. 

[Josh McFadden]

It does matter in areas where there is plenty of bug life.  When there are so many bugs in the water that a trout doesn't have to eat what you offer. Yeah. In a small stream with little aquatic life where the fish have to take what you offer out of desperation probably not. I think it depends on the type and size of the bugs you have. There are days on the tailwaters down here where you may catch fish on a 14 but the fish are eating 16#s and 18#s. Stomach pumps provide us with the most accurate sampling of what the fish are eating. Size and profile matter the most to me in my opinion.
Josh

[Kalvin Kaloz]

Good one D, thought provoking and one I have pondered many many times!!! I am anxious to hear a few thoughts from some of the guys with more comp experience...

I don’t nearly get enough time on the water as I would like but I can honestly say I have never been in a situation that dropping from a 14 to 16 nymph MADE the difference. I have experienced that situation with fishing dries during major hatches but like I said never nymphs! With that said if I had to pick 1 fly it would be a 16 frenchie so I would have a hard time axing that one.

Here is my thoughts/approach thus far…my main considerations; weight and profile then color. Using your example…while I might need/want the weight of a size 8 frenchie I would opt for a different profile in that size. So I have restructured my box/tying to give me large to medium anchors (size 2-12, .3 to 1.5g) then frenchies, micros and caddis larva to make up the 14-20 range. Last but not least some thread midges in the 18-22 range

By no means is this a “be all end all” but it looks good on paper!  HA HA My plan is to practice, practice, practice with this makeup and see how it produces… guess that will be the real test.

[Chris Smorul]

I have fished 2 different sizes of the same pattern together with pretty much equal takes on each fliy. 

[Mark Hanes]

It might not make a big difference but on some streams it has for me.  But really I can't say for sure but as long as you are fishing your flies with confidence and are reasonably close in size and color to what the trout are keyed in on you will catch fish. 

It would be interesting to see one guy fish the sizes you are thinking of getting rid of Dejon.   It is a theory worth testing.

[Domenick Swentosky]

My experience is that size is the most important element of fly selection.  So before I would eliminate sizes of a particular pattern in my box, I would eliminate various colors of the same pattern. 

Examples: I used to carry BHPTs in regular and olive dyed pheasant tail.  I stopped that and just carry a standard color.  I've done the same recently with Rubber Legs pattern we talked about.  I tied it in a few color combinations and sizes 6-12 to start.  It's a great pattern for me so far, but I found (same as you, Torrey) mostly brown and tans working best for me, and I have confidence in it now.  BUT, I've had days with that pattern where I can't get them to take a twelve, but they'll hit a ten on every few casts.  So ..... I'm taking out the various colors but keeping the various sizes.

I think there's enough size difference between a twelve and a fourteen, for example, to warrant carrying both because, like I said, I think it's the most important element.

Fun to think about.

Enjoy the day.
Domenick

[Dylan Jones]

I definitely think size matters, however, I think the size may just be altering the presentation.  A slightly deeper drift, slower, etc. with a different size and that is what induces the strike.  I like to have different sizes for weight/drift issues as well as profile. 

[Aaron Laing]

I know that when fishing dries it can be all about size, but with nymphs less so.

I think it matters generally with nymphs. The difference between a 16 and an 18 is so minuscule that fish for the most part don't differentiate, but throw on an eight or a ten and it's a different ball game. That said, I've had times when the fishing has been good on an 18 and I've switched up to an 8 and had the same level of action--go figure.

I think, as others have said, it depends to some extent on the water and available food sources.

Aaron

[Chris Smorul]

I definitely think size matters, however, I think the size may just be altering the presentation.  A slightly deeper drift, slower, etc. with a different size and that is what induces the strike.  I like to have different sizes for weight/drift issues as well as profile. 

That is an interesting point you bring up Dylan.  I really hadn't thought about how the size of the fly could effect the way it drifts in the current.  If the fish are holding close to the bottom a larger, heavier fly would do better than a smaller one that the current wouldn't allow to sink.  That's a great observation.

[Tim Long]

It ain't the size of the fly...it's the motion in the river of course.

I was watching Larry Dahlberg's Hunt for Big Fish the other day, and he said that the more he fishes, the more he is convinced that the motion of the bait and not the bait itself is what is important.  I take this to mean that presentation trumps all else, and I agree.  Like many of you I fish the same patterns in the same size over and over again.

[Dejon Hamann]

My underlying point is: size obviously matters, but really only in general terms and more specifically on paper. 

How many of us actually use 8 different sizes of a single pattern on a stream?  We may take PTs 10-22, but I doubt that many anglers systematically cycle through the sizes to continually find what is working best.  We usually take an educated guess and then stab at a few refinements falling back to what first worked. For example: some larger mayfly is active and you find that a size 12 PT catches fish.  Just to test - maybe you jump down to a 14 for awhile, but it doesn't work for you for some reason. Then you stab out at a 20, but not for long because you know the 12 is catching fish.  Did you try a 10?  Did you analyze all the variables?  Was it just an inactive stretch of water?

My bet is that in a "fly fishing test tube" there exists a measurable difference between the effectiveness of a size 12 Pheasant Tail and 14.  But in the real world that difference is so negligible against the all the other variables of human error, changing fish activity, strike detection, presentation, sun angle... that it's rendered mute.  Just like the difference between 5x and 4.5x

There are also other factors we haven't discussed. What is the standard for a size 14 Pheasant Tail? With the wide array of hook sizes, sometimes even incorrect sizing within hook lines, and the great variance in how large a tier ties a particular pattern on the same hook (short shanked, down the bend, etc).

Generally speaking I completely agree.  A 2/0 Pheasant Tail is not going to out fish a size 22 when appropriate.

Specifically speaking I propose the following: I'll bet you can simplify your fishing process and increase your effectiveness by cutting out every other hook size from your fly tying station. 

[John Killinger]

D HA HA My plan is to practice, practice, practice with this makeup and see how it produces… guess that will be the real test.

Practice, practice, practice, yeah right when do you plan on doing that new house, family, Guard and full time job, ha, ha. I'll beleive that when I see that.

[Torrey Collins]

Great thread topic.  My 2 cents.  In terms of weighted nymphs, I think size matters greatly because the flies get heavier and lighter as they get bigger and smaller.  It's all about presenting properly, and that means using correctly weighted flies matched to the conditions.  I have my go-to flies, and generally what I do is tie each in at least 3 consecutive sizes, with each size getting lighter as they get smaller (usually go down one wire diameter & bead size with each hook size drop), which generally gives me light, medium and heavy.  I've got my heavy anchors (say Stoneflies in bigger sizes, medium to large woven flies), my medium anchors ( maybe a PT, Caddis or Hare's Ear type fly in #12-16), and my lighter/smaller patterns- which could range from a medium size lightly weighted pattern down to some micro patterns with 1.5mm beads.  With this system, it's easy to tell which flies are heavier and I can easily mix & match to suit the conditions and bugs.  To me it makes more sense than using a #10 woven fly and doing a light, medium & heavy version in the same #10 size and then having to come up with a system of marking the patterns to differentiate them.  Generally, when you want a heavier pattern, more often than not you want a bigger one, and when you want a lighter fly you typically want a smaller one.  Not always true, but more often that not it is.

I also think that size can sometimes matter in terms of getting the fish to strike, but not all the time.  Some of the venues I fish have both good bug life and they receive heavy angling pressure.  Sometimes to be successful it means using a big stonefly, because the fish are seeing a lot of them & keying on them.  Sometimes it means using something small because the water is low & clear and the small flies are imitating whats hatching and/or are "safe" to the trout- at least until you set the hook and break the bad news, Lol.  I can think of many, many outings when fish keyed on a particular size & color nymph and took it in preference to anything else, no matter what position on your leader I placed it.  Now I agree that you generally have a little latitude in terms of effective fly sizes- if they will hit a #14 olive larva, you can probably hit them on a #16 also.  But you may find the #14 catches a few more fish, and often it's the bigger trout that are the pickiest.

So back to your original idea of axing some of the in between sizes, you could probably do it.  Personally, I have several super-high confidence patterns that I'd be loathe to axes the in between sizes on, but I could certainly do it with many of my patterns.  Like I said, I generally do 3 sizes in my main patterns, mainly to have different weight flies in the same pattern.           

[Bill Welz]

Weight of the anchor fly is the key thing for me. I am not skilled enough to lead a fly that is to heavy to make up for the excess weight. I weigh my flies and have them organized by weight. The difference in weight between my flies is about .10 grams. So I start with woven nymphs that weigh 1.2 grams and work down to .25 grams. This is a lot of fly tying and I am sure there is a better way .  I  have found that  when euro nymphing  I  increase my catch rate by either going up  in weight or going down until I find just the right weight for the section of river I am fishing. Last night on the Delaware I was fishing a stretch that I knew held fish. I caught nothing for a half an hour . I kept fiddling with the  weight of the anchor using the same fly in various weights. I got some tentative hits on a .55 gram woven fly. I dropped down to.45 and I killed. I find that size in the dropper is important. Thats where I try to match the hatch but the dropper does not work well for me until I get the weight of the anchor right. Maybe this is a transitional phase in my euro nymphing but for now it works for me.

[Loren Williams]

As  some of you may know, I have been spending a GREAT deal of time fishing single flies; almost to the point where I have so much confidence in the values of the single fly that I am hard pressed to fish two nymphs!

I can only do this because of the billions of hours on the water learning how to make spot adjustments with my approach, cast, and rod angle to account for changes in water.  It sucks changing flies every time the water speeds or slows or gets deeper or shallower.  Obviously gross changes require a different fly but I'd far rather adjust me rather than the fly!

I'll be happy when I achieve my goal of having the skills that allow me have 999 of the exact same fly in my box, until then there is much for us all to learn!

[Dejon Hamann]

Bill, I think you've described a natural progression, but also an average part of the end game.  Weight in my opinion and how it aids the anglers presentation is much more important than fly size.

Who ever decided that the standard hook sizing progression 10/12/14/16 had anything to do with fish catching any hoot!?  If there were 11s and 13s would some guys be saying: "well, I just can't do without my size 13 Red Copper John.  It's consistently better then the 12 and 14 for me."  What if they came in mm sizing would some guys be saying: "I really prefer the Tiemco 165(mm) Nymph Hook for my Baetis nymph because I feel it most accurately represents the greatest number of naturals in the streams I fish.  I've had good success with the 170,175, and 160, but that 165 is my baby!"  Just because something has been around for a long time doesn't make it true.