Rollover, Curlies, & Klinks...

[Dejon Hamann]

Got my first fish on a dry yesterday!  Well, I actually missed my first fish on a dry.  Felt good though just to see it - I laughed out loud

Which brings me to the subject line. 

2 major points to cover here:

Tips on Turnover:
1)In constructing your "do it all leader" do you have any tips on achieving good rollover when throwing a dry/dropper(dropper)?  I'm probably just rusty from a long winter of fishing nymphs deep, but I had a hell of a time getting my Euro Leader to rollover yesterday without getting the curly and the dry/dropper rig constantly tangled. I think my 2section (35/30) leader just isn't supplying enough power through the casting stroke to, so obviously a move to a more aggresive tapered leader will resolve some of the problems.  I know, "big open loops" too.

Klink pivot point:
2) When you fish a Klink with a dropper in the usual manner tying off the hook bend you put the weight of the nymphs off the tail which causes the Klink to ride true. In comp fishing we aren't allowed to break the leader, so the pivot point often causes the Klink to ride oddly. Has anyone found any tips in rigging or fly construction to combat this?

My big goal here is to keep the same leader on even when I'm dry/dropper prospecting.  After months of practicing solely with a curly yesterday reminded me just how accurate and effective prospecting with a dry/dropper(dropper) can be on certain water types - especially big flat featureless spring creeks.  A true vertical approach with the ability to stealthily deliver a presentation at over 30 feet just can't be adequately covered with a Euro Rig sometimes.

[Bret Bishop]

D-
I like the idea of a "do it all leader." I really tried to perfect this for New Zealand which had a one "setup" rod rule.  And there are times when a quick switch from nymphing to Dry Dropper/Dropper can pay off.  I don't know the specifics about your set up so I will just toss out some ideas to consider:
-Definitely tweak your leader to a more aggressive digressive setup.
-Try a smaller diameter slinky...less wind resistant.
-How are you connecting your tippet to your slinky? (We have discussed this in a previous thread) You loose power if don't properly transition into your tippet from the slinky.
-Maybe eliminating the slinky all together and just using a straight piece of colored mono would help.
Still it is hard to beat a rod and leader combo set specifically for dry dropper.
Hope this helps.

[Dejon Hamann]

I'm really keen on keeping the curly in the "do it all" leader.  The straight mono just doesn't work as well for me both in strike detection and then those instances where I like to dope and float the curly.

I've been tying my most recent creation of the curly with 12/8lb Ande Mono straight on either side of a 2 tone 12" curly (Ande Yellow, Cabela Pink Floro).  Then I'm blood knotting the leader to curly and surgeon knotting my tippet on the other end. Yesterday, I was running a short 20" section of 4x off the curly to my 5x dry/dropper setup. I think this was probably part of the problem as it wasn't creating enough "clearance" between the curly and dropper rig on turn over. 

My dilemma right now is on curly diameter.  The pen sized ones produce a nice big bouncy curl that makes it easy to see slight movements in the individual coils especially at distance, but it casts like poop and stretches out at times.  Then I have some toothpick sized ones that  stay nice and compact and transfer energy in the leader system far better, but almost look like a straight piece of mono at over 20'.  I need to run out and get some wooden dowels that are somewhere between the diameter of the pen and toothpick.

The leader is obviously the biggest offender.  But I'm also wondering if I should switch out the straight ande mono on the curly with some actual leader material to increase the rigidness and energy transfer at those junction points.  The curly is what it is and there are only a few materials with good visibility so you have to write off the energy loss there, but diameter is most certainly somewhere to gain some ground.

I agree though - sometimes you just can't beat a straight dry/dropper rod/leader setup.  My current vision though is if I can get close enough with the "do it all euro setup" the advantages of keeping "one rod/leader" in my hand will greatly outweigh the advantages of having more specifically tuned separate setups.

[Domenick Swentosky]

Got my first fish on a dry yesterday! 

Do you mean first dry fly fish of the season, or ever?? 

Domenick Swentosky

[Dejon Hamann]

Do you mean first dry fly fish of the season, or ever??  

Hey, who's the new guy    jk jk.  First of the year  I didn't even own a nymph from the age of roughly 7 to 14.

[Loren Williams]

I would re-evaluate how you are using your rod (or more importantly which part of the rod) to make the cast. 

[Dejon Hamann]

I would re-evaluate how you are using your rod (or more importantly which part of the rod) to make the cast. 

Do you think I should flip it around?

[Loren Williams]

yeah wise arse

Let me ask you this:  are you casting fly lien when you switch to a d/d approach?  If so, why?  and if not, then why are you having problems casting it if you did not have problems casting nymphs?

To have a truly versatile leader, you have to account for everything you might do with it--not simply build it to fish nymphs and then workaround everything else.

[Domenick Swentosky]

Are you comp guys not permitted loop to loop connections?  If not, could there be another way of quickly changing leaders?

Because my current method of switching over is to loop on a new bottom half of my leader to go to dries.  I used to add and/or take away the last few sections and adjust the leader basically from the butt section down, but I found that I could do a faster change and waste less material by just having a basic leader set up for dries with a nice taper built in and one for nymphs and one for streamers.

I know some guys think this is a pain, but I found that I can do it really fast.   I don't keep the leaders flat in a wallet, but wrap them on an old spool of Maxima and have them ready in a front pocket of my vest.  I'd say I can remove a nymph leader and be casting dries with the new leader in less than two minutes.  Maybe faster.  Also, then I have not wasted any material either.

Enjoy the day.
Domenick

[Randy Hanner]

No loops permitted!

[Dejon Hamann]

Let me ask you this:  are you casting fly lien when you switch to a d/d approach?  If so, why?  and if not, then why are you having problems casting it if you did not have problems casting nymphs?

I think my big problem is I just want too much   I want my euro nymphing setup to cast as precisely and smoothly as a strict dry or dry/dropper setup... and that's just not going to happen. Finding the happy medium is the key as far as competition style fishing goes.  I just got in and worked on some leader permutations for the last few hours.

Using a more aggresive taper, longer section from curly to dry, tighter curly, and "following thorough" on the casting stroke all really help.  But it still doesn't feel natural and "second nature" - only more practice will take care of that.

Dom, when I first started comp fishing I used to keep different leader setups on separate retainers as you suggested. All though I too can get pretty fast at changing them out - cumulatively 6-12 changes in a  3 hour session keeps your flies out of the water for crucial time.   

[Loren Williams]

With my leader here is a typical approach I might take at exhausting a run, pool or riffle:

1. Single Dry on point
2. Single nymph on point
3. double nymph (second added to dropper)
4. dry/dropper (by removing top nymph (or not) )
5. streamer on point

It is effective and super-efficient.  I am CONVINCED there are, at any given time, fish that will eat a dry but ignore a nymph, and fish that will take a nymph animated under a dry when a straight nymph gets passed-up.  The whole streamer thing--has saved me more blanks and won me more sessions....OMG.  It may not get me a pile all the time, but it almost always gets me less blank spaces on the score sheet.

-add in wets if you like.  However, if I am going to fish wets, I will probably be doing so exclusively with a different, dedicated rod.  But I do practice them with this leader..and a cast of wets and the floating curly can be devestating.

I make no adjustments to my tippet or leader aside from removing or adding flies.

Now, it is my leader and you can;t have it--and probably would not want it because it probably will not behave on your rod with your cast at your height with your eyesight.

Also, usually I do not go through the entire progression-but I can.  And yes, I can cast the d/d as accurately as a single nymph.  It's about using the power in your rod, it's a different casting stroke.

[Dejon Hamann]

I'm definitely a "do it all leader" convert for all the reasons you listed.  It makes sense on paper and on the stream - which I like.  Just gotta keep tweaking and practicing till I find a combination that works for me.  Mind you, I catch a lot of fish with the systems I'm currently using I just want it to feel as fluid, confidant, and second nature as I am casting a 9ft dry/dropper setup.

[Domenick Swentosky]

With my leader here is a typical approach I might take at exhausting a run, pool or riffle:

1. Single Dry on point
2. Single nymph on point
3. double nymph (second added to dropper)
4. dry/dropper (by removing top nymph (or not) )
5. streamer on point

Well, fair enough.  That's a lot of changes and I wouldn't want to be changing my leader that often either, even with using loop to loop. 

I haven't graduated to this kind of approach yet.  If they aren't taking nymphs in one run, I usually move to the next.  I may switch quite a bit throughout a full day on the water, but rarely will I try that many approaches in one run.

I guess when you guys are given a certain beat, you have to make the most of each yard of water.


Domenick