The Rules

[Lance Egan]

Rules are rules...

In 2003 when I first got involved with Team USA I learned the rules the hard way.  I showed up to a tryout having never heard of Fips Mouche, let alone the rules.  Needless to say, I like most were confused by them, and my initial reaction was that many of the rules were lame, and very restrictive.  I questioned why they were that way, and didn't get many great answers.  Since then I've learned to adapt my fishing to abide by the Fips rules, and now I can't imagine going back to "traditional" american style techniques.  My fishing has improved in many ways.  My understanding of rigs, ability to read water, catch rate, percentage of landed fish and versatility have all improved.  The thing I like most about comp angling is the learning process.  I constantly learn, and this is what motivates me to continue. 

Many of you are likely better anglers than I was when I started Fips approved angling, but if you are anything like me I can guarantee you that learning to adapt to the rules WILL MAKE YOU A MUCH BETTER ANGLER!

Dejon,

I can't think of a reason why incorporating a balloon into a fly would make it illegal, however a balloon by itself on the hook I'm sure would not suffice.  Flies DO have to be attached to droppers to keep from creating a "break" in the leader that attaching to the bend or eye of the top fly would create.

[Dejon Hamann]

Flies DO have to be attached to droppers to keep from creating a "break" in the leader that attaching to the bend or eye of the top fly would create.

I agree you can't break the leader, BUT what if you attached a fly to the leader just as you would a thingamabobber?  I think it's a natural deduction to assume flies must be tied on terminal points (droppers), but I don't see anywhere in the regulations that explicitly state thus.  In the same vein I don't think it states that a fly must be tied to a metal hook eye... so what if a fly had a more suitable rubber "eye" for this application?  hmmmm

btw, I couldn't agree more.  All though the rules were a shock when I first started I can't imagine fishing any other way now. 

[Pete Erickson]

Couldnt agree more Lance,

At first these rules seemed lame to me, but after a tough indoctrination, I began to realize that the restrictions made me a better angler...maybe a good analogy wood be:  there are rules, regs even limitations in Formula ONE racing, so that the drivers' racing skills can be showcased...if everything were allowed, the cars would eventually be jet powered and doing 800 mph...and the driver with the best "technology" would win, not necessarily the best racer.

as far as what constitutes "real fly-fishing"  I think we talked in detail about this in an earlier thread, but for me, it's still fly-fishing if the flies need to be cast via a line(be it flyline, mono, flouro, braid, or even silk).  try using a spinning outfit to cast a size 20 frenchie on a 25 ft mono leader...you cant throw a loop in that leader that carries a near weightless fly with a spinning rod and reel(especially when using level mono off of a spinning reel)...you need a fly rod to trajects a loop through that leader which in turn delivers the fly.

spin fishing "slings" weighted lures, whereas, fly-fishing trajects a line which in turn carries the usually near weightless flies to the target...  that is not to say that one cant "sling" a heavy nymph with a fly rod!  but that might not meet my definition of fly casting either...

just my two cents

[Lance Egan]

I like it Pete.  You are a Formula One fly fisher!

When at first I thought the rules were limiting, I now realize all the things that opened up because of the rules. 

Personally I don't care if I am "fly fishing" or not, I'm just out to have fun and catch fish.  I own and use many spinning, casting and Ice fishing rods and use them all.  I'm a huge fan of the fly rod, but I don't feel like I need to fit my fishing into an accepted category.

Just my .02 cents...

[Pete Erickson]

Lance,

Yep,

Fishing is...well...just fishing!


thanks for the email, I hope you like the rods, please give me feedback after you fish them for a while, I always think a rod action can be improved upon...

cheers
Pete


p.s. I fished Magic Res this past weekend...not too bad...some 3+ pounders on perch patterns...

[Dejon Hamann]

Here's one on the rules concerning landing/netting of fish.

Question: Are fish landed by "unconventional means" counted?

A) Angler hooks fish, it runs into debri, and snags another part of the line, usually the dropper on something.  Angler reaches into water and grabs the leader to extract and net the fish.
B) Angler hooks a fish and pops it onto shore or another dry surface (large rock, tree, dock, etc)  where it becomes unhooked.  Angler nets fish.  
C) Angler never hooks fish, but just nets it.

The closest rule I can find governing any of these instances is the following.  It would seem as long as the fish is presented to the controller "in the net" that it is legal:

22.1. If a competitor wishes a fish to score, he must land it in a net and pass the fish in the net to the controller for measurement and recording (Article 20.2 refers).

C) might be outlawed by:

24.2. Only fish hooked in the mouth area, i.e. in front of the rear edge of the gill cover, will be eligible.

[Todd Oishi]

22.1. " If a competitor wishes a fish to score, he must land it in a net and pass the fish in the net to the controller for measurement and recording (Article 20.2 refers). "
22.2. " The controller must remove the hook, revive the fish and release it, taking care not to damage the fish. "
24.2. " Only fish hooked in the mouth area, i.e. in front of the rear edge of the gill cover, will be eligible. "

The rules are set to make it clear that the controller must be able to visually confirm that the fish was hooked in the mouth area (in front of the rear edge of the gill cover) to be eligible.

I've been officially told, several times in fact, that it's alright to touch or handle the leader (a), so long as the hook remains hooked within the mouth area for the controller to verify that it was fairly hooked in the first place. But you can't touch the hook, as only the controller is permitted to remove the hook (see article 22.2).

A fish that is just netted (c) definitely won't count (this one's an obvious violation) as it was never hooked in the mouth area to start with nor could that fact be confirmed or verified by the controller...

[Dejon Hamann]

This is good to hear.  Wasn't sure on this one and it makes the most sense. Especially concerning the health of the fish.

I've been officially told, several times in fact, that it's alright to touch or handle the leader (a), so long as the hook remains hooked within the mouth area for the controller to verify that it was fairly hooked in the first place. But you can't touch the hook, as only the controller is permitted to remove the hook (see article 22.2).

Interesting. This is a departure from my experience at many comps and how we run our regionals and minis.  Not a critique mind you, just highlighting a difference in procedure.  Because of the high likely hood that a barb-less hook may dislodge in transit (net) we score fish "unhooked" when received by the controller.  Of course, if a controller can 100% proof positive visually confirm that a fish was foul hooked before entering the net they can disallow that fish on the spot.  

If the fish spits the hook (b), then it becomes uncertain as to whether it was fairly or foul hooked, so the fish will not count. This why I always tell my controllers to take a look as I am bringing the fish into the net or once its in the net with tension on my leader (to reduce the chance of the barbless hook popping out while coming ashore or in the boat).

[Loren Williams]

How can a fish "spit" the hook if it was fouled?

[Todd Oishi]

Good point! I retract my comment.

[Bob Lux]

 [/quote]


Interesting. This is a departure from my experience at many comps and how we run our regionals and minis.  Not a critique mind you, just highlighting a difference in procedure.  Because of the high likely hood that a barb-less hook may dislodge in transit (net) we score fish "unhooked" when received by the controller.  Of course, if a controller can 100% proof positive visually confirm that a fish was foul hooked before entering the net they can disallow that fish on the spot.  

If the fish spits the hook (b), then it becomes uncertain as to whether it was fairly or foul hooked, so the fish will not count. This why I always tell my controllers to take a look as I am bringing the fish into the net or once its in the net with tension on my leader (to reduce the chance of the barbless hook popping out while coming ashore or in the boat).

I never even bother bringing a fish to the controller if it is fouled, as I am sure most "honest" competitors do. I don't like the rule that a fish remained hooked while in the net. I'm sure most people here have had a fish spit the hook a time or too or net the fish just as it spits. Dishonest people will cheat whatever way they can, but I would think that as long as the competitor is not reaching inside the net prior to the controller measuring the fish, that should be good enough. The chances of a foul hook shaking a hook are less likely than a fair hooked one spitting.
[/quote]

[Todd Oishi]

Great comments and observations Bob. We usually go through this rule/scenario at our meeting with the controllers and sector judges, just so everyone is on the same page.

The way that the rules read and are interpetted, makes it important to educate the controllers (especially newbies) that it isn't always possible to see the placement of the hook, as there is a high probability that it will pop out while the competitor brings it ashore for recording - observing a foul-hooked fish during a loch-style sessions is far more obvious, as the controller is right beside the competitor and can clearly see the placement of the hook while the fish is being led to the net (more what I was making reference to).

Sorry if my earlier comment was a little confusing or vague, as I hadn't had my morning coffee at that particular  moment in time...

[Chris Puchniak]

On another rules subject, what is the legality of wire ribbing?  Is it considered "weight" that is not hidden, thus illegal?  Or, in the form of a spaced ribbing, is it "hidden within the dressing"?  For the latter one, I could see a brassie/Coopper John being illegal, but would a gold-wire ribbed Hare's Ear be illegal?

Obviously, like many things, it's not clear in the rules.

Of course the question "If you have to ask, then it's likely not legal" comes into play.  But it seems to me that a spaced ribbing is not harmful within the intention of the rules - however, I could easily see it being argued that as within the writing of the rules, any wire ribbing could be deemed illegal as it is visible weight.

[Jeremiah Hamilton]

You can have wire ribbing just no touching turns as in copper john, but a gold-wire ribbed Hare's Ear is legal.

On another rules subject, what is the legality of wire ribbing?  Is it considered "weight" that is not hidden, thus illegal?  Or, in the form of a spaced ribbing, is it "hidden within the dressing"?  For the latter one, I could see a brassie/Coopper John being illegal, but would a gold-wire ribbed Hare's Ear be illegal?

Obviously, like many things, it's not clear in the rules.

Of course the question "If you have to ask, then it's likely not legal" comes into play.  But it seems to me that a spaced ribbing is not harmful within the intention of the rules - however, I could easily see it being argued that as within the writing of the rules, any wire ribbing could be deemed illegal as it is visible weight.

[Chris Puchniak]

Thanks J.  I am guessing that is a rule that has come out of specific events and just not covered in the FM general rules.

[Iain Barr]

Where does a judge draw the line between a fly and a strike indicator?

I know guys who fish foam bodied "dries" that look like indicators, but they have hooks.  Based upon what I've heard, that constitutes a fly.

Could I take a Cortland pinch-on indicator, apply it to the hook, and do the same?  Just saying...

As long as t he fly has the capability to hook a fish then it is in. A good size Klinkhamer is ideal, just use a bright 'post' if in white water. The duo or trio under a Klink is just lethal!  Many of your fish will come if you stop the drift and 'lift' the nymohs under the dry! Look out, BANG!!

[Loren Williams]

Welcome Iain!!

[Paul Bourcq]

Glad to see you Iain!

[Pat Brechbill]

Dejon you are probally correct but is fishing with 30ft of mono fly fishing?  I'm more guilty of fishing that way than anyone. I think the answer is if your using flies its fly fishing. I just find it funny that people work around the rules and came up with something that hardly looks like fly fishing.

30ft?  Yes.  31ft?  No.   

What is "fly fishing" really anyhoot?  It's all a game to pass the time and have some fun. 

Dejon, are you saying that 31' is illegal for leader length? I thought there was no limitation on leader length per section
27.1. A single monofilament leader may be used, of any length. Has there been a change to this rule?

[Dejon Hamann]

Dec 09'! I can't remember the BS I wrote yesterday!

Pat, you are correct.  Currently no leader length restriction in fips-mouche, unless denoted by local water regulations.

After rereading, I think I was trying to be funny.  Nick asked if "30ft of mono is fly fishing".  Could you imagine if they passed a rule at fips one day where 30ft leader and under is fly fishing... and 31ft leader and over is spin fishing.

[Pat Weiss]

Can I use Power Bait if I fish a 31' leader?

[Mark Hanes]

No power bait but you can get away with night crawlers. 

[Dejon Hamann]

I encourage you to use bait at this upcoming comp Pat.  Just make sure you show your controller and tell the head judge about it.  

[Pat Weiss]

 

[Pat Brechbill]

Dec 09'! I can't remember the BS I wrote yesterday!

Pat, you are correct.  Currently no leader length restriction in fips-mouche, unless denoted by local water regulations.

After rereading, I think I was trying to be funny.  Nick asked if "30ft of mono is fly fishing".  Could you imagine if they passed a rule at fips one day where 30ft leader and under is fly fishing... and 31ft leader and over is spin fishing.

I was hoping you were kidding but you never know with those Fips Mouche guys. Anybody use the Hends 900 cm leader and what are your thoughts.