Author Topic: Barbless versus debarbed hooks (Read 1004 times)

Chris Puchniak · « **on:** May 25, 2010, 02:21:15 PM »

I know it's a minor point, but we're always looking to find that small edge in increasing our landing success - at least I assume we all are - and I was wondeirng if anyone has any feedback on the hooking/holding power of barbless versus debarbed hooks. I've been in the school of thought that prefers "debarbed" hooks over barbless based on my personal experiences, but more recently I've been thinking about gonig more to factory barbless hooks (when they can be found). At one point when doing a lot of salmon fishing I was convincing myself that although my factory barbless hooks were hooking up better, I was in fact losing more fish before getting them in (though these were 3XL shanks, giving the fish decent leverage). I am curious if anyone else has any thoughts.

I see the following pros of each:

Barbless Pros:
Should penetrate better into fish's jaw with no "hump"
No chance of an imperfect debarbing (it happens)
Less chance of weakening a hook tip and breaking tip on stones, etc... (perhaps applies to fine wire smaller hooks only - those are the only one's I've seen break)

Debarbed Pros:
May hold in the jaw better with the slight hump providing resistance to pulling out (though this may also make penetration less successful)
More barbed hooks (which you debarb yourself obviously) are available to select from than barbless, giving you more hook selection (which may be a massive advantage, as you can get more optimally "shaped" hooks that offer better holding power)).

Loren Williams · « **Reply #1 on:** May 25, 2010, 02:28:59 PM »

I care more about the shape of the hook (gap, point length......), sharpness, wire diameter and consistency versus cost than I do it being barbless or not.

Chris Topmiller · « **Reply #2 on:** May 25, 2010, 03:03:19 PM »

Per your advice Loren I picked up the C49S hooks from Mustad. I am curious how they will stack up against the partridge cz hooks once I debarb them (regs require it). The partridge is a GREAT hook. In fact, I abandoned the 2457 for my woven nymphs because when its debarbed, IMO it doesn't hold nearly as well as a manufactured barbless hook.

Torrey Collins · « **Reply #3 on:** May 25, 2010, 03:13:27 PM »

The choices in manufactured barbless hooks increase every year, and Tiemco currently offers barbless versions of their popular 100 (dry fly), 3769 (wet fly), 3761 (standard nymph 1xl). All have their awesome Super Point that is spear shaped and goes in like a knife thru hot butter. Their best hook, IMHO, is the 2499SP-BL, one of the best scud hooks out there, bar none- straight eye, 3x wide, 2x short, 2x heavy (seems more like standard wire or 1x heavy to me though, ultra sharp Super Point hook). It has a longer point that is slightly turned in- seems to snag up less & hold fish better. My hookup to landing ratio is best on that hook.

Chris Puchniak · « **Reply #4 on:** May 25, 2010, 03:59:34 PM »

Quote from: Torrey Collins on May 25, 2010, 03:13:27 PM

Their best hook, IMHO, is the 2499SP-BL, one of the best scud hooks out there, bar none- straight eye, 3x wide, 2x short, 2x heavy (seems more like standard wire or 1x heavy to me though, ultra sharp Super Point hook). It has a longer point that is slightly turned in- seems to snag up less & hold fish better. My hookup to landing ratio is best on that hook.

I haven't found that hook locally (funny how that is sometimes) but I've heard good things about it. For streamers, I used to like the 5263BL, but as far as I can tell, I cannot get that one anymore. Been about 6 or 7 years since I found them and I suspect Tiemco discontinued it.

I agree with Loren that the shape of the hook is the more important issue. As is sharpness, maintaining its edge, etc... Which implies that I wish I had more barbless options to make better comparisons.

Again, not a major issue, but I'm always looking for any advantage I can.

Chris Puchniak · « **Reply #5 on:** May 25, 2010, 10:55:55 PM »

Amending my previous post, I see Tiemco still has the 5263BL, so I will have to work harder at finding it.

Dejon Hamann · « **Reply #6 on:** May 26, 2010, 09:00:41 AM »

Regular guiding and steelhead are one thing.

But when it comes to competition fishing so far it's just made more sense for me to pay the extra money for "comp" level barbless hooks like Knapeks. If I had to tie for a whole team or production that might be another issue. As it stands I'm usually right on the fence though.

I really wish a company like Mustad would embrace a full line of "comp style" barbless hooks. They'd get all my hook money

I have been thinking about trying some of the cheaper barbed alternatives out there though mentioned of late in a few threads.

Chris Puchniak · « **Reply #7 on:** May 26, 2010, 11:57:25 AM »

Not sure if this has been asked and posted before Dejon, but where is the source for buying Knapeks? I assume they are online ordered thru Czech?

Dejon Hamann · « **Reply #8 on:** May 26, 2010, 01:12:08 PM »

Here's a good one:
http://www.flytyingspecialties.com/

Chris Topmiller · « **Reply #9 on:** May 26, 2010, 01:13:38 PM »

That's where I get mine. Steve is super fast and easy to deal with. If he has them in stock, he will get them out to you the same day.

Chris Smith · « **Reply #10 on:** May 26, 2010, 06:33:06 PM »

Quote from: Chris Puchniak on May 26, 2010, 11:57:25 AM

Not sure if this has been asked and posted before Dejon, but where is the source for buying Knapeks? I assume they are online ordered thru Czech?

You won't find a cheaper source than Jan Siman in the Czech Repubic.

http://www.siman.cz

With the current exchange rate, you're looking at $5.02 for 25. Tell him Team Stonefly sent you.

Chris Puchniak · « **Reply #11 on:** May 29, 2010, 07:03:42 PM »

Thanks for the sources guys. Now my next question in Knapek hooks is how do their shapes and sizes compare to other standard hooks? Comparing Mustad to Tiemco to Partridge is easy because everyone has a chart for those, and they use the typical standard of 2XL, 2XW, 3XH... But I notice the Knapek hooks rarely have this comparison or use a citation (2XL...). And, since I have to order them remotely, I have nothing in hand to make the proper comparisons (An dI hate to start guessing wildly). Perhaps someone has a chart comparison or can give me an idea on a few hooks?

Essentially, looking to compare for a:

TMC 2487 2XW 2XS - is this the Knapek G Scud or the P Pupae? Is one of those closer to a TMC 2457 (2XH)?
What is the difference between a P and a G Knapek? Is the G a 3XW and the P a 2XW?

TMC 5263 2XH and 3XL - is this the N Nymph or the W Wet hook? I see the S is a 4XL, but that's the only one cited (that I can find).
Roughly guessing from online, I'd say the W is 1XL or 2XL and the N is 2XL or 3XL. But I cannot be sure.

Please help out a slightly confused fly tier...

Loren Williams · « **Reply #12 on:** May 29, 2010, 07:39:34 PM »

G is a short curved shank like the TMC 2457. P has a longer shank-longer than the Mustad C49S. The W and N are pretty darned similar (I prefer the W)--closest to the TMC 100 I guess. The S is the longer shank btu has a heavier guage (probably about 2 XL). They use to make a T which was like the 200R kinda of. The D is much liek the W but a bit finer.