Leader Questions

[Jason Brown]

Okay, I have been researching various leader formulas and I am more confused than ever. This is my first foray into European fishing techniques and I am intrigued by the various leaders designed to get deep quickly and with the curly sighter (ingenious). My problem is that I don't know where to start. I am looking for a leader that will get deep quickly, aid in strike indication, and not to long for a rookie to properly manage or difficult to cast.  Can someone give some  advice on possible leader formulas? 

Thanks,

Jason

[Loren Williams]

I am not a huge fan of giving leader formulas because I think they are too dependent on the angler, his rod, and his cast.  Heck, my leaders change more than my underwear!

What I will offer is this:

The butt/taper:  it's purpose it to remove your need for fly line so that the connection from your rod to your sighter is as taught as you wish w/o affecting the drift of the flies.  Fly line has mass and in order to remove the belly of line in order to gain contact (which is needed for strike detection), you usually end up moving the flies before the line..this is why many guys start with really heavy flies.  The farther from you you decide to fish your flies, the longer this section needs to be.  My butt/taper is short compared to most guys at around 9 feet or so, some guys are using 15-20 feet of leader between the fly line and sighter.  I have been there, I'm not there anymore.  I may go back--never know!

The Tippet: this is where your depth comes from, and this is usually the very flexible portion of most guys' leaders--it changes to reflect water depth and speed as well as fly size.  For example: for me to get a #18 tung beaded nymph down in a deep quick flow will require longer, finer tippet than if I were fishing two #12 tung beaded nymphs.  Likewise, the same nymph rig will need different tippet section (or a more aggressive lead with the rod) to fish a shallow riff versus heavy pockets.

I think the theory is where your time should be spent if you are picking this up for the first time for once you grasp the theory, your decision making will be based on logic and not trying to copy another angler.

[Don Strandberg]

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Posts: 118

Loren Williams


    Re: Leader Questions
« Reply #1 on: Today at 12:10:39 PM » Quote 

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I am not a huge fan of giving leader formulas because I think they are too dependent on the angler, his rod, and his cast.  Heck, my leaders change more than my underwear!

 Loren well said, nothing is carved in stone. I carry differant sections. Of what I call starter sections. Then I go from there depending. For instance I know I am to heavy handed as a caster. I am working on it. But I still tie a little extra slack in my dry fly leaders to compensate for my bad casting...

[Domenick Swentosky]

Jason,

I think we were all at the same point that you are not so long ago.  I think you're right to gather as much information as you possibly can.  The challenge is to sift through it all and come out the other end of the tunnel with a system (or a leader in this case) that suits you and accomplishes what you want to achieve.

Those two paragraphs that Loren just wrote are loaded with information.  Some of it will make sense immediately, but a lot of it just won't sink in until quite a bit of trial and error.

Loren and some others around here were kind enough to give me a starting point for the rig, and that's all you really need.  You'll take it from there.

If there's one thing I'd say that might help out, it's to keep things short for now.  You can catch A LOT of fish with a butt section that's about 6 feet , then your sighter, then 4-5 feet of tippet to your first fly.  Where I'm at right now isn't a whole lot longer than that, and remember that longer is not always better. 

I'm sure that others here can give you better info than I can because they've been using these rigs a heck of a lot longer than I have.

Question: have you ever tied your own leaders before?

Enjoy the day.
Domenick

[Jason Baker]

Jason:

A real simple formula to get you started:

6-8 lb Rio Surfer Leader
3 feet of 1x-3x depending on weight (this combo is great to get started with at it easily turns over any fly rig)

I have my sighter inserted here (I use either two-tone 10-15lb amnesia (chartreuse and red) or a tight curly-cue (french) sighter of about 12" in length.

Below I use 4-6X depending on water conditions:

Length of tippet really depends on water depth, but in general add 3-4 feet of 5x to your first tag and then the required FIPS distance of 50 cm to your second (and third fly if you choose). I rarely go to 6x as this style of fishing is usually used in faster water columns where the current and volume of water breaks light and scrambles optical images.

I have a d few other formulas, but this one is super easy to get started with and it's effective.

[Loren Williams]

Jason,

Where do you get 10# Amnesia?  I did not know it came smaller than 15#.

[Domenick Swentosky]

Jason,

Where do you get 10# Amnesia?  I did not know it came smaller than 15#.

I'd love to see it in 10# too.  The 15# is a little heavy for where I like to have my sighter in my leader, but I love the visibility of the Red Amnesia --- which you can probably see from the moon.

Enjoy the day.
Domenick

[Torrey Collins]

We've all been down the leader tweaking road, it seems like a never ending trip.  I still make minor changes from time to time, even though I have some leaders I'm very happy with.

To respond to the points you are looking for in these leaders:

1. To get deep quickly, use a long tippet section (long as compared to "normal" store bought leaders that usually have not much more than 18") of 4x-6x fluorocarbon tippet- each "X" size you go down increases the sink rate more than you would think.   I would start with 4-5X, depending upon upon fly weight, water speed & fish size.  For a shorter leader set-up like this, I typically use about 4-5' of tippet, but you can tweak this slightly longer or shorter as conditions dictate.  Fluoro sinks a bit faster than mono (because it's denser) and it is MUCH more abrasion resistant.

2. Other than detecting strikes by feel (keep slack out of your leader during the drift), the strike detection comes from watching the "sighter"- the brightly colored section you tie in above your long tippet.  It can be made out of fluorescent dyed mono/fluoro (chartreuse, orange, red, etc) in anything from 6# all the way up to .015", fl. fly line backing in 20-30#, or dyed braided mono.  Keep this section to no more than one foot, I usually go even shorter.  You can put two contrasting colors together to increase visibility & strike detection.  The easiest way to put this into your leader is to tie a loop on each end, and then simply tie your butt section & tippet to either end with regular knots.  These loops are not competition legal, but prob doesn't matter because it doesn't sound like you are competing.

3. A total length of 10-12' is probably a comfortable amount for you to handle & cast, over time you can lengthen your set-up as you get proficient with it.  For a leader like that, a butt section made out of two pieces of heavier mono works fine- I would do something like 3-4' of .017-.021" clear mono down to 18-24" of .012-.015" mono.  At the other end, off the long tippet, tie another piece of 4-5X fluoro to it and leave the tag end 5-6" long for your upper dropper fly.  Just start off with a 2 fly rig, it's much easier to deal with.  Typically, the heavy fly ("anchor") goes on the point, lighter pattern on the dropper above.

In the future when you play around with longer leaders, remember that basically the lower part of the leader from the sighter down is very similar on all the Euro set-ups (Czech, Polish, French, Spanish), the biggest difference being the length of the butt section between the fly line tip & sighter.  However, you will usually need to lengthen out your long tippet section as you leaders get longer- I'm typically in the 6-8' range there, but go anywhere from about 4' up to 10' (for long distances and/or deeper water).  Use either a Triple Surgeon's Knot (and use the downward tag that points away from your fly line & toward the end of the tippet), or tie in a Tippet Ring and tie the dropper tag off that (again not competition legal).  Keep the distance between the 2 flies to about 18-24", give or take- for competition, you have to be at least 50cm (20") apart to be legal.  When you do start going to longer leaders, I would initially recommend using a commercially made knotless leader of 12' down to your sighter, they turn the system over well.  Bonefish & Trout leaders are readily available in most fly shops in that length, and you can find 15 footers if you look (in trout & salmon leaders).  Rio makes a good selection.

Hope this helps "untangle" Euro-style leaders for you a bit.

[Domenick Swentosky]

That's good, Torrey.

You guys should Sticky this.  It's gotta be the most common question around, and that's a good explanation of where to start.  I remember that a post about leaders was one of my first posts on here.

Enjoy the day.
Domenick

[Jason Brown]

Thanks to all who responded to my question.  You guys have given me some tremendous information and a great starting point.  Thanks again.

Jason

[Jason Baker]

Jason,

Where do you get 10# Amnesia?  I did not know it came smaller than 15#.

Loren:

You are right, I looked and it's 15-20 rather than 10-15. Good catch...

Also, the surf leader idea came from a discussion with Steve Parrot. Thanks Steve...